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Episode 5.11 - Theory Notes

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Re: Episode 5.11 - Theory Notes

Postby TheReasonx on Tue Apr 07, 2009 6:25 am

OK
I understand the reason in most films etc. the TT's memories don't change to enable him to tell the story.

Answer me this -
If on Monday you eat an apple
On Tuesday you go back to before you ate the apple and steal it and take it back to Tuesday.
How is it possible for you to have memory of eating something you have in your hand?

Your saying you travel with memories of eating the apple but you change that from happening. How can you remember eating the apple you hold in your hand?

I don't know Lost is going to end but I am dying to find out. All I know is that if they are going to come up with an answer that is like this theory then don't want to be sat there thinking - err how come or thats not right. I think we all need a definite 100% answer.
TheReasonx
 

Re: Episode 5.11 - Theory Notes

Postby MTOD on Tue Apr 07, 2009 7:36 am

THE REASON X - I don't know Lost is going to end but I am dying to find out. All I know is that if they are going to come up with an answer that is like this theory then don't want to be sat there thinking - err how come or thats not right. I think we all need a definite 100% answer.



In all seriousness, I got to be honest with you. With questions like the one below I fear you might be?



Answer me this -
If on Monday you eat an apple
On Tuesday you go back to before you ate the apple and steal it and take it back to Tuesday.
How is it possible for you to have memory of eating something you have in your hand?

Your saying you travel with memories of eating the apple but you change that from happening. How can you remember eating the apple you hold in your hand?




Because you already ate the apple, therefore simply you already created the memory.

You are the time-traveler...if some time-traveler went back to visit you in a time before you ate the apple or before you created the memory, and took it - then fine you won't remember eating the apple because you're not the time-traveler and you never/haven't done it yet.

In all your examples, you are saying the time-traveler does everything (the time-traveler eats the apple, thus creates the memory. travels back in time to before he ate the apple, thus creating additional memories. then the time-traveler travels back to after he ate the apple, thus creating additional memories).


In the time-travelers head ALWAYS taking with him his previous memories and NEVER changing any of them, only ADDING (it looks like this in his head: eat apple, travel back in time, take apple, travel back to the present)...THE END

It looks that way in his head (how does it look in yours)?










:arrow:
MTOD
 

Re: Episode 5.11 - Theory Notes

Postby TheReasonX on Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:37 am

Why does the person who`s time travels not get their memories changed??

There has to be rule for time travel.
TheReasonX
 

Re: Episode 5.11 - Theory Notes

Postby TheReasonx on Tue Apr 07, 2009 9:58 am

Super I think we have nailed it.

Now what about Jacks hair - is it me or does it look differnt all of a sudden?
TheReasonx
 

Re: Episode 5.11 - Theory Notes

Postby TheReasonx on Tue Apr 07, 2009 11:29 am

ME TOO
TheReasonx
 

Re: Episode 5.11 - Theory Notes

Postby Matt Orley on Tue Apr 07, 2009 12:07 pm

Seeing all of the left open questions, the twisting characters, the visuals of ancient statues and temples, it gets me very excited to know that JJ Abrams is going to be doing the Dark Tower series by Steven King in movie form. Who better, really?
Matt Orley
 

Re: Episode 5.11 - Theory Notes

Postby LOSTCJ on Tue Apr 07, 2009 3:09 pm

Along the lines of what has been talked about, I'm wondering: If it is 1977, it is probable that most of the O6 should be alive in real time (if Jack is a practicing doctor in 2004, should be a baby in 1977 [2004-1977=27, assuming he graduates from college at 21, and given his early exit, spends 6 years in med school/studying for and taking the boards/interning]). So how can two bodies of the same person exist on the same plane? Or, are they even on the same plane of existence? I can sort of comprehend dual consciousness and "constants", but dual bodies sounds like it's begging for a course correction (if such a theory still holds).

This is the longest 30 hours of the week.
LOSTCJ
 

Re: Episode 5.11 - Theory Notes

Postby MTOD on Tue Apr 07, 2009 4:16 pm

Someone shoot me...
:lol:
MTOD
 

Re: Episode 5.11 - Theory Notes

Postby padeloco on Wed Apr 08, 2009 1:01 am

Whatever happened,happened...

But..in a certain way,not in the way the authors wants to make believe us!
I dont believe Sayid always shoot Ben.For me there one's was a time that Sayid was'nt on the island in 1977,because he was still young and lives his life off the island.
padeloco
 

Re: Episode 5.11 - Theory Notes

Postby WAAAAALT on Wed Apr 08, 2009 2:45 pm

You can't change the timeline because whatever you decide to do is the timeline.

Jack never saved Ben in 1977. That's what always happened.

Sayid always shot Ben.

Kate and Sawyer always brought Ben to Richard.

Whatever the characters do is exactly what happened. There's nothing to change because it's in their hands.
WAAAAALT
 

Re: Episode 5.11 - Theory Notes

Postby Guest on Wed Apr 08, 2009 5:42 pm

it's simple, the writers messed up

do you know how many inconsistencies, bloopers, slip ups this show has? i was shocked when i looked into it and hugely disappointed. from simple stuff like changes in a backpack that someone is wearing in one scene to whole storyline inconsistencies.

conveniently the writers can correct anything with "time-travel." or a "smoke monster." because we don't know how it ends. which is the genius of the show - not that they planned it all out (which i don't think they did) but the fact that they can just wing it.

and seriously, if young ben just magically forgets everything, that's going to be a huge cop-out. i know most people think the lost writers, producers, and jj abrams are geniuses that thought everything out years ago but they're not even true sci-fi guys. i think they're making up half this stuff as they go along and when the show finally ends, i think viewer theories will be better than what actually happens.

i will give the show credit for being able to generate so much viewer buzz.
Guest
 

Re: Episode 5.11 - Theory Notes

Postby Guest on Wed Apr 08, 2009 7:43 pm

"one of us" and "black smoke"

Looks like in this season "black smoke" became something more than just a killer - for 4 seasons it was simply killing ppl, in 5th season it has not - remember french guys? they were dragged into a hole under orchid, then they came alive, too bad crazy women shoot them ;) so they were "converted" or something! may be the same is going to happen to Ben? and long time ago it happened to Richard?
Guest
 

Re: Episode 5.11 - Theory Notes

Postby padeloco on Fri Apr 10, 2009 12:21 am

WAAAAALT wrote:You can't change the timeline because whatever you decide to do is the timeline.

Jack never saved Ben in 1977. That's what always happened.

Sayid always shot Ben.

Kate and Sawyer always brought Ben to Richard.

Whatever the characters do is exactly what happened. There's nothing to change because it's in their hands.



Whatever happened,happened...

But..in a certain way,not in the way the authors wants to make believe us!
I dont believe Sayid always shoot Ben.For me there one's was a time that Sayid was'nt on the island in 1977,because he was still young and lives his life off the island.
padeloco
 

Re: Episode 5.11 - Theory Notes

Postby WAAAAALT on Fri Apr 10, 2009 10:30 am

padeloco wrote:
WAAAAALT wrote:You can't change the timeline because whatever you decide to do is the timeline.

Jack never saved Ben in 1977. That's what always happened.

Sayid always shot Ben.

Kate and Sawyer always brought Ben to Richard.

Whatever the characters do is exactly what happened. There's nothing to change because it's in their hands.



Whatever happened,happened...

But..in a certain way,not in the way the authors wants to make believe us!
I dont believe Sayid always shoot Ben.For me there one's was a time that Sayid was'nt on the island in 1977,because he was still young and lives his life off the island.


Young Sayid is living his life off the island at the same time present-day Sayid is on the island. It's not as if you travel back in time and the "you" from that time period disappears.
WAAAAALT
 

Re: Episode 5.11 - Theory Notes

Postby WAAAAALT on Fri Apr 10, 2009 12:27 pm

Kirra wrote:If Waaaaalt is correct, it would be something like

OMNISCIENT VIEW
Sayid is born
Sayid is 6 in Iraq and Sayid is 30 something on the island
Sayid is 10 in Iraq/ Sayid is perhaps killed in someway on the island
Sayid is 30 something on the island and returned via 815 crash
Sayid is thirty something building houses
Sayid ___________________________ I'm wondering what happens here? He gets on the plane and then what. Help me out here. What am I missing?

-------------------------------
SAYID'S VIEW
Born
Military
Crash
Leave
Return
Shoot Ben
Perhaps die on island


He gets on the plane and is sent back to 1977 before the crash landing.
WAAAAALT
 

Re: Episode 5.11 - Theory Notes

Postby padeloco on Sat Apr 11, 2009 1:11 am

WAAAAALT wrote:
padeloco wrote:
WAAAAALT wrote:You can't change the timeline because whatever you decide to do is the timeline.

Jack never saved Ben in 1977. That's what always happened.

Sayid always shot Ben.

Kate and Sawyer always brought Ben to Richard.

Whatever the characters do is exactly what happened. There's nothing to change because it's in their hands.



Whatever happened,happened...

But..in a certain way,not in the way the authors wants to make believe us!
I dont believe Sayid always shoot Ben.For me there one's was a time that Sayid was'nt on the island in 1977,because he was still young and lives his life off the island.


Young Sayid is living his life off the island at the same time present-day Sayid is on the island. It's not as if you travel back in time and the "you" from that time period disappears.


Thats true,but my opion still counts,there was a time that Said was not on the island.He never timetravelled before the crash!There was a time that Sayid did not killed Ben.

Even Jason believes that there was a timeline or iteration where Alex was not kidnapped by Ben!

quote Jason:In this first iteration of time, Alex was never kidnapped by Ben. Rosseau actually raised Alex all the way to the year 2007 on the island. Also, Rosseau may have never killed off her entire team!

1970-1988 (second iteration): Ben is born off of the island, and with the help of Horace and Richard, Ben is brought to the island. As Ben grows up on the island, he works with Richard toward a plan to prevent Alex (and the group of Zealots) from attempting to destroy the island in 2007. Thus, Ben kidnaps Alex so that he can "shield" her from forming her faction and attempting to destroy the island. However, since "fate has a funny way of course correting," the second iteration of time choses Charles Widmore to "replace" Alex as the leader of the group who would destroy the island in 2007.
padeloco
 

Re: Episode 5.11 - Theory Notes

Postby WAAAAALT on Sat Apr 11, 2009 3:30 pm

I think the key here (and perhaps the toughest thing to get around) is that you have to look at time as its own entity. It's not linear, it just exists. The past, present and future are already determined. Only the characters experience them in real time.
WAAAAALT
 

Re: Episode 5.11 - Theory Notes

Postby Other on Sat Apr 11, 2009 5:02 pm

I think that in the first timeline sayid didn't shot ben but someone else did(some hostile, his dad...). In the new timeline sayid replaces the first shooter so the result is the same. I think this kind of replacing has happened in other cases too.
Other
 

Re: Episode 5.11 - Theory Notes

Postby beer on Wed Apr 15, 2009 1:31 am

i'm actually an avid supporter of your theory, but about your thoughts on when ben woke up, i think he was probably genuinely surprised because typically dead people do indeed come back to life in the past, but in alternate timelines they're apparitions, which may have been more along the lines of what ben was expecting. there was very likely a mixture of fear in there as well though.
beer
 

Re: Episode 5.11 - Theory Notes

Postby ProtestedGyro on Wed Apr 15, 2009 4:10 pm

MTOD wrote:THE REASON X - I don't know Lost is going to end but I am dying to find out. All I know is that if they are going to come up with an answer that is like this theory then don't want to be sat there thinking - err how come or thats not right. I think we all need a definite 100% answer.



In all seriousness, I got to be honest with you. With questions like the one below I fear you might be?



Answer me this -
If on Monday you eat an apple
On Tuesday you go back to before you ate the apple and steal it and take it back to Tuesday.
How is it possible for you to have memory of eating something you have in your hand?

Your saying you travel with memories of eating the apple but you change that from happening. How can you remember eating the apple you hold in your hand?




Because you already ate the apple, therefore simply you already created the memory.

You are the time-traveler...if some time-traveler went back to visit you in a time before you ate the apple or before you created the memory, and took it - then fine you won't remember eating the apple because you're not the time-traveler and you never/haven't done it yet.

In all your examples, you are saying the time-traveler does everything (the time-traveler eats the apple, thus creates the memory. travels back in time to before he ate the apple, thus creating additional memories. then the time-traveler travels back to after he ate the apple, thus creating additional memories).


In the time-travelers head ALWAYS taking with him his previous memories and NEVER changing any of them, only ADDING (it looks like this in his head: eat apple, travel back in time, take apple, travel back to the present)...THE END

It looks that way in his head (how does it look in yours)?
:arrow:


I don't know if anybody remembers the movie The Butterfly Effect (severely underrated movie IMO)...but when Evan (the time traveler), from the present, changed his past, the new memories from the NEW TIMELINE grew immediately in his brain, but he NEVER forgot the old ones. With the knowledge from the PREVIOUS timeline AND the NEWLY CREATED timeline, he was able to once again create, what he thought, was a "course correct". Once again, just another example.
ProtestedGyro
 
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Re: Episode 5.11 - Theory Notes

Postby gohlkus on Tue Apr 21, 2009 1:22 am

I do like the multiple iteration version of the theory.

Now that we're getting all this stuff about "what lies in the shadow of the statue?" and the revelation that Bram (the guy on the beach with Ilana) tried to stop Miles from joining up with Widmore before Miles got on the freighter -- there is the possibility of yet another secret society, or some previously undisclosed wing of something we (the audience) already know about (DHARMA, the Others, Widmore's people, Ben's loose conglomeration of people like the butcher & Mrs. Hawking, etc.).

Are they from farther into the future? Are they coming back to fix the stuff Oceanic 815 managed to screw up? Or are they from some iteration "prior" to the one marked as "first iteration" in the current version of the theory?

The Alex stuff is an interesting way of justifying Ben kidnapping her... clever.

I'm still trying to figure out which iteration, and which time, the sequence with Jin and the stuffed panda bear is from (that was shown intercut with Sun giving birth).

Kudos to the original author for coming up with this early on....
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gohlkus
 
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Re: Episode 5.11 - Theory Notes

Postby parisbeth on Wed Apr 29, 2009 6:35 am

When I read the Time Loop Theory, I assumed that it was time travel--not the smoke monster--that healed Young Ben's gunshot wound. That way, the reason he doesn't remember anything about it is that he (individually) went back in time to the time before he met Sayid and before he was shot.

Although, now that I think of it, Locke was healed by going back in time (after landing on the Island), but he didn't forget that his father was responsible. Could Richard have "switched" the gunshot-wounded Ben with a Ben who was a month younger or something?

I'm confusing myself!!
Forgive me if someone mentioned this already--so many posts.
parisbeth
 
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Re: Episode 5.11 - Theory Notes

Postby Boon on Fri May 22, 2009 8:46 am

JMG wrote:Kirra:

Sayid was working for Ben, killing people, then he met Ilana, she had been hired by the family of the man Sayid killed on the golf course, to bring Sayid to justice. Sayid in custody of Ilana get in the plane, and he flash off the plane, like jack, kate and Hurley, and he "wake up" on the island in 77, Jin saw him, etc, etc.

Then he "kill" little ben (from Sayid's perspective)and run into the jungle, he is ALIVE in the jungle, maybe met Richard or someone, we don´t know that yet.



I just wanted to point out that I was under the impression that it was Jacob who hired Ilana to do this?
Boon
 
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